How to Hire an Artist by a Client Who Should be Avoided at All Costs
on August 9th, 2010At all costs, because this dude, Christopher Gregorio, isn’t going to pay diddly squat.
I wasn’t going to blog today, but I can’t let this go. Genyooine quotes:
I recommend looking through art sites such as Deviantart…First of all, they’re cheaper…
If this enrages you, think hard next time you ask a friend to help you move or to fix your computer instead of hiring a ‘professional’. Pizza and beer cost less than ‘professional’ movers, so clearly you are exploiting your friends. Or the kid down the street who mows your lawn. Or whomever it is you hire to do a job you don’t want to or can’t who isn’t a “professional”.
I’m dazzled that these brain trusts don’t understand the difference between unskilled manual labor and a skilled professional who has spent many years in training. Since he is the type who equates computer repair with pizza delivery, I fear for the state of his hard drive.
There have been several times I’ve been working on a game with an artist only to have him/her walk out on me halfway through.
That’s what you get when you hire amateurs.
Keep them in the dark:
This relates back to what I talked about earlier. If an artist knows how much their artwork will increase the value of the game they will then feel they deserve that amount of money.
An ill-informed beginner is easily exploited.
Many people claim about this being unethical, but in reality it’s how all businesses work. When a company makes a profit, does it take that profit and evenly split it up among all of it’s employee’s?
Thank you for the straw man, but that is not how all businesses work. Profit sharing and transparency are not equivalent. A failure to pay fair market rates and to engage in ethical business practices is not a call to profit sharing or socialism.
These dude’s complete and utter lack of self awareness is repulsive. Only someone who is wholly comfortable with their skeeze level would ever post something this obnoxious. They clearly believe they do no wrong.
Sorry for any poor grammar, I typed this up fairly fast.
The amateurish quality of the writing accurately reflects the amateurish quality of everything else you get that you are too cheap to pay for.
Remember kids: without you, these dudes don’t have a product to sell.
Feel the power.
I hope you will take the time to peruse the Very Bad Publisher tag for more tales of clients of this sort.
The new edition of the Graphic Artist Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines isn’t out yet, but I helped work on it. Someone should get Mr Gregorio a copy for Christmas. Perhaps this book and the Christmas spirit will help him exorcise his inner Scrooge :
From his update notice —
I’m leaving the originally article 100% in-tact so people can continue to read it. Please stop flaming me, I don’t mind if you disagree with my viewpoint, but please give me constructive criticism rather than telling me to die in a fire. It makes you a hypocrite to make death threats at me for not treating artists how many of you want.
Okay, I’ll give him a pass on the “originally” because I make that typo for “original” myself. But seriously, “in-tact”??? Why in heaven’s name does he think that a hyphenated compound word? It makes me think his education wasn’t intact.
But the whole thing pales with that last comment, that he’s being criticized because he doesn’t treat artists the way YOU want (my emphasis). The concept of offering artists a fair minimum wage or such seems beyond him. “Let them suggest the price,” seems insanely unbusinesslike and exploitive to me, especially when he’s talking about going to inexperienced artists, who have no idea of what a fair-market price might be.
It also astounds me that he rounds out his recommendations by saying that you should be sure to hire only 18+ year-olds, because kids just can’t do the work (I’m assuming school distractions and unpolished art skills would be the detriment). Why is that even something he needs to say?
He talks about hiring artists like his game-making is actually just a hobby with him. “Get cheap artists. Hire people who don’t have a clue of market-value for art. Don’t give them an idea about usual minimum price for work, but rather let them set the price, because they’re not going to know what to ask!” And then there’s his friend’s quote that he added to the update where the implication is that published credit on the game that the artist did the art is something to negotiate for! What?
My mind boggles.
And then guys like this get all defensive when people come out of the woodwork to say they are idiots and exploitive.
I can’t believe this guy.
The villain put his monologue-ing on a blog.
Back in my yooooouth [about 30 years ago] I did 8 full colour watercolour/pen and ink paintings – all action adventure stuff – to illustrate a book about the Normans for a local artist. Once they were done he opened his wallet and said, “How much do you want?” I hadn’t a clue and said, “Normal sort of rates,” and he laughed and gave me £5 – which worked out at less than 10 pence an hour. “Ah but you had fun doing it,” he said.
They are always with us, but a little local history book is a far cry from a game that could sell thousands of copies. This guy needs his tail kicked.
Good lord.
Some of the worst clients I have ever dealt with were creators or former creators. You may find this amusing:
http://adistantsoil.com/2009/03/09/03092009/
Someone who does not have an account popped in to say this “client” may actually be a small start-up company run by a kid.
Then he just got a spanking.
The guy’s very hilarious. Despite his ‘track record’, he is no professional.
“but in reality it’s how all businesses work”
Kind of ironic since last week, I received a bonus for a project that came in ahead of schedule and under budget. And everyone on my current project has been told that the same incentives apply on this project.
It does help since returning from San Diego with empty wallet, I have been hit with a number of failing appliances. I am waiting on the bill for the new compressor for the A/C and then I have to go and buy a new washer.
Did the crap rain just hit the entire planet?
Man, what a week for everyone I know.
My car is going to cost me a fortune in repairs, my printer just died, mt tax bill came in four figures higher than expected, and Turkish pirates – not one of whom, I bet, looks a damned thing like Johnny Depp – hijacked my website.
Oh yeah, my diggs in Washington – let’s just say HELL, NO.
My three months in DC has been whittled to a week.
And you’re right: NO pro.
Almost every major problem I have ever had in publishing has been with small fry. The worst clients.
I don’t care if you think Disney is an evil empire. I’d rather wrangle the mouse than most of these small press goofballs.
Here’s something I learned a long time ago: The better they pay you, the better they treat you. The reverse is also true. If the client treats you well, they will generally pay promptly and happily; if they treat you like a lowly servant or are very demanding an difficult, they will also grumble and drag their feet about paying. They will also push harder for a lower price at the outset. If you bid on a job and the client starts whining about the price, you can bet he’s going to be a pain in the ass while you’re working for him.
Okay, talking through my hat a bit, as I haven’t done much freelance in the last few years. But I have taught Portfolio classes and encouraged my students to take their work seriously as a business and to insist their clients do likewise. BTW, the only textbook we always used was P & EG.
’tis the Deity’s own work you’re doing, contributing to that worthwhile book, even if its pricing tables are unrealistic for beginners.
I do take minor exception to the notion of “unskilled labor”, as that is a label that management often uses to underpay workers who complete tasks that management lacks the skills and stamina to do themselves. Just a pet peeve.
Understood.
It’s just as someone who picks and grows my own cabbage, I have no trouble understanding the difference between cabbage picking and creating intellectual property.
I don’t think the two skill sets are the same, though cabbage pickers seem to get paid more than most artists.
“The median wage for nonsupervisory hired farm labor, at $6.75 per hour”
That’s the 2008 rate.
That is more than I got paid per hour for a certain major trading card license assignment I did two years ago.
And my freelance comedy of errors:
Attending a Minnesota Cartoonists League meeting more than a decade ago, a rep from MN AIDS Project came in requesting a comic artist for a HS awareness comic. I agreed to take the job, for a flat fee of $400.
At our second meeting, I was told that the parents wanted a brochure instead of a comic. So I re-edited and reformatted the text, modified my illustrations, fit the copy, spec’ed paper with the printer, signed off on a proof and started to work on changes.
At that point, the teachers didn’t like it because the copy was “too sexual”- I actually used the word condom- and it went back to committees. Then the kids’ committee didn’t like it because it was too bland.
I was told all three committees needed to review the process, and could I check back in 3 weeks?
3 weeks later, I called and was told that the man who had hired me had stepped down for health reasons. Explaining the project, i got this response: “oh, that. We decided to make it a comic book and went out and hired an artist. It’s at the printers now. Sorry we didn’t get back to you.”
Aargh.
I got my kill fee, and have the rather impressive (if very dated) printer’s proof for my book, but wow. Just wow. Well-meaning folks, overworked, trying to keep everyone happy and accomplishing so little from so much effort.
BTW, the comic was a short 16-pager, and covered all the same material the parents and teachers objected to in the brochure copy. The artist hired was friend, very talented, who really needed the work and did a very good job for such a fast turnaround.
If you’re confused reading this, imagine living it!
Oh, good grief. What a pain!
wow, I’m surprised he didn’t pull the “but you’ll get your name in the credits!” routine.
I don’t hope he personally will die in a fire, but his career, reputation, business? Flame on.
Johnny Storm concurs…
Behold, the Flaming Phoenix of Scorn.
Good Jesus riding Mary! And I thought only in Mexico we had to deal with jerks like that! The ever present “But your name will be in the credits” its still used today to make newbies, literally, give away their work for nothing but a credit in the page of a magazine! The excuse is “Well, there’s no budget. you can’t say no, there’s others whom will accept gladly” and sadly there are! LOTS! horror stories from “The ufo guy” He’ll ask newbies to “let him show their work in HIS studio portfolio” Supposedly to get them “jobs”. How curious he never got any jobs for them! GRR!
I know the whole comic book industry is in crisis, in my country is almost dead, if not dead already. There’s a difference between getting scammed of a fair pay, and totally steal the work from an new artist, who just never thought what’s their work worth.
There’s this site http://www.ilustracionmexico.org/tabuladordeprecios.html
Created by several illustration and comic professionals, to help new artists to get a fair idea how much is worth their work.
Hon, I am sorry to say that no, this isn’t limited to Mexico.
This crap was going on back in the Dark Ages when I was a wee scribbler, and I got burned so bad, so often, by some deeply unscrupulous people that I am still trying to recover from the ouch.
But there was no internet back then, and there was no way fifteen-year-old me had access to information that could have helped me.
Well, when I grew up and got a voice of my own, I decided to use it.
And here it is.
Creators do not have to take this nonsense, and I can’t say it often enough: NO CLIENT WILL RESPECT YOU IF YOU LET THEM EXPLOIT YOU!
Chintzy clients do not lead to bling assignments.
Famous people do not sprinkle stardust on you.
The only thing that matters is your portfolio and business savvy.
Exploiters never stop exploiting. They do not change. They will not start paying you decent rates someday. They will not learn to respect you as a human being.
EVER.
Walk away.
This nonsense definition of capitalism that keeps popping up: well, I majored in business, and I learned that capitalism was the investment of money into the creation of goods and services of greater value than the investment. And that the return on that investment is to be invested into the further creation of valuable goods and services.
The value of goods and services does not exceed the value of the producers. Without producers, there are no goods and services. Without producers, there are no consumers.
Treat producers with respect.
Produce vs. Producers
Of cabbages and comics…
The most recent example, over at Bleeding Cool, features a deviantartist being offered TWO COPIES OF THE COMICBOOK as payment for a pin-up of a celebrity to be used in a comicbook biography. Don’t know why the artist was so angry… maybe because the issues weren’t autographed?
Ms. Doran, do you have a post on pricing ones’ work? Work For Hire, book publishing (advance/royalty), computing an hourly wage to estimate what to bill the client?
Thanks for that, Torsten. I just had a very odd encounter with a woman who seems to think creators are a spoiled, whiney lot.
The average hourly wage for an agricultural laborer is higher than that for many artists. I realize some hobbyists simply can’t believe that, because they romanticize the profession of art.
I’d search my system for posts, but I am deadline crunched.
The Graphic Artist Guild book has extensive price lists. They tend to run high, but then, they give a good overview of industry rates and standards for all kinds of areas of professional arts.
A beginner should trend their prices down.
The Tad Crawford legal books have great blank contract agreements.
As for work for hire, I don’ have a problem with it if I am being paid a fair rate.
The primary objection to work for hire is that one is treated as an employee for purposes of intellectual property law, but receives no employee benefits.
If I get paid enough, then I am willing to sign up.
Many creators have a problem with signing away their rights, but I didn’t create Sandman. I don’t believe I should own it. A Distant Soil is another matter.
I have had a few people sign WFH agreements for me. Such as for letterers and colorists. No benefits, but then, they were paid more than I was for their work, so they were treated fairly.
I did have a letterer and a colorist come back later on ADS asking for royalties, but I don’t think they have a very clear picture of just how highly paid they were at the time.
I did the math, and their page rate still has not earned out on the book (and since I dumped the color editions, there will never be royalties for those).
Regardless, the accounting could get messy, and I’d rather overpay up front than have to figure it out later.
Most books never earn a royalty. Much of the time, you’re better off taking the higher page rate up front.
Sandman would be a notable exception.
More fun with math.
Unless you have spent your career working on high end properties, you are much better taking the higher page rate.
I just added up ALL of my royalties since 1990 (ADS not included, since I get no page rate.)
It’s less than HALF what I would have gotten had I earned only $20 more per page for work produced over the same period.
Considering for most of the 1990′s I earned less than half per page what I do now, I would have been even better off with a higher page rate in the long run.
For the average freelancer, I’d say a bird in the hand is worth two and all that.
while surfing through links to links to links, ran across this:
http://comicnews.info/?p=9055
wow, just wow. And this:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/08/06/the-price-of-your-copyright-two-copies/
which features the good ol’ non retroactive Work for Hire scam (if the work is already done it is by definition already NOT work for hire) – and bonus because the art is actually a sketch copy of someone else’s photograph. Double bonus for minors involved.
Yeah, it’s a beautiful day in WTF!Copyright world…
whoa, what the… comment awaiting moderation? Is that new? I can see why you might need one but, that’s going to be a time eater if you approve them all from scratch…
It’s an automatic feature that pops up once in awhile. It’s not something I am doing.
It sometimes happens if the filter can’t id the links.
I just looked at those links.
I’ve met Darren on many occasions and found him charming and funny. Once he even got me out of a…er…tight spot with an extremely disturbed fan whose fly was open.
Long story. But Darren was a hero.
So, I am very sad to see that Darren is doing bad things.
Very Very Bad Publisher things.
I remember hearing a story from a friend of mine about one of his graphic design professors in college. They were often given very specific projects to complete, with any writing and body copy given to them to use. The students went ahead, did the work for class, showed it off, got the grade, handed in the original files and print copies. This went on for a few months. Then, one of them happened to look at their professor’s online portfolio. About two weeks after they had finished each project, she had apparently chosen her favorite, given it to her client…and put it up on her website as her own work. She was using her entire class to make free work to her client’s specs and then used it for her profit. Needless to say, after the students reported it she was fired, but still. The sheer gall!
I once met up with a potential client at an architectural firm in Manhattan with the basis that after we’d met and discussed the details, I’d give him the estimate and contract, and if he agreed and paid the downpayment, I’d go forward immediately. The day after I get a call that they would be interviewing with other artists today… …wait. Sadly, I was never informed that I was in fact bidding on their contract with a bunch of other artists, not the other way around. Either that, or they decided not to hire me after all and didn’t want to say that straight out (companies seem to really hate doing this). The work that was explained to me was piddlingly small, I rather wondered why they needed a designer at all considering their firm had done everything else already. Their new website has still not gone live, three months later (all they needed was 3 product images cobbled together and 12 thumbnails according to them!). I get the feeling some poor designer hired over there found out that the writing in the contract didn’t exactly cover the entirety of the job they would be asked to do…
OMG, that professor story: I’m in awe.
I have a sad tale of a gig year’s back. I was hired to do simple primary character illos for a fair, but modest fee.
Before long, the job was upped to limited animation, primary character design, background illustration, set design, and secondary character design.
For no increase in pay.
The micromanagement was awesome, and corrections were usually not compensated. Corrections were often niggly things like, “move the foot a bit left”. Not hard, but every single little thing added up.
I picked up the gig at $30 an hour, and walked out making $5 an hour. I was very sick while working on it, so was running really slow. I don’t think the client was sorry to see me go.
However, years later, that project still ‘aint out.
And that was one client from whom I never got a bad vibe. Just so focused on what they needed they didn’t really consider the impact of their behavior on the contractor.
I liked them as a person, the work was fun, and if the pay wasn’t so bad, would have been happy to continue the gig.
But I actually went into debt trying to stick with that assignment. I can’t live on $5 an hour!
My original post I had made on this subject got eaten by a computer crash and I was too lazy to retype it until now. That said, among the good news is that DeviantArt, one of the places he found artists, posted a news post on what he said http://news.deviantart.com/article/125498/?offset=10#comments so that will hopefully help stop some of the amature artists from being taken advantage in the same way.
Also, found a really nice rebuttle http://www.thejonjones.com/2010/08/09/how-not-to-hire-an-artist/ from another person who had developed games. I especially liked HIS version of how to encourage artists to do a good job.
And the story of that graphic design teacher… ..dear god. Its so bad it makes it seem like it must be an urban legend… ..do you know her name?
On a completely different note I forgot to mention, his site now features a new quote I actually find myself having to agree with, at least in part– he’s hardly alone in doing this, and because he posted it, because people saw, raged and linked to it, a lot of people who really didn’t know better about a lot of things (I myself never was very aware) word about it is spreading.
He’s small fry, but there are a lot of people with the same views, some in much higher positions, and now a lot more people are aware of it.
So while I’m no fan of what he did, I actually am happy he posted it. It’s educational for completely different reasons then he intended.
Full agreement.
In one place he claims he’s 23, in another he’s 16.
Whatever, he was foolish enough to spout off, and it got a discussion going.
Good.
and now there’s an ED page for him (totally NSFW) so the internets will never forget his failiness. Yay.
I’d hope the world could forget my failiness, but unfortunately some of my early work remains in print.
Public failiness is forever.
Speaking of failiness, Arlnee posting that link FORCED me to look at ED. I failed majorly at freelancer self control.
Not only is it not work safe (I can’t believe the pop up ads) but I am ashamed to admit I actually went looking for people I have had the misfortune to encounter in fandom.
And I found some.
I will need time to recover.
My keepers are coming to take away my ethernet cord.
I’m trying to find examples of fair contracts for artists because I’m currently looking for an artist to hire to do the promotional artwork and cover art for my next pdf book. Do you know where I can find something along those lines? I want to be fair but also protect myself from any future problems that could come up.
Also I would like your view on something if you could. If I’m doing a free project I like to hire a local artist to work on the cover or any promotional art. Now I can not afford to pay high dollar for a project I’m giving away so I’m paying artists what they advertised which sometimes is very low prices. Am I wrong in doing so? I don’t want to get any sort of bad rep when it comes to working with artists. An example is I found the bus card of an artist at my comic shop who does stuff for $30 to $50 for pencils. These are his set prices.
Just thought I would mention in case its more of a problem than just my crappy computer but I can not see any comments but my own on your posts. Ignore if just on my side of things
Tad Crawford has written a number of books with blank contracts for creators. They are easy to find on Amazon. Click here:
$30-$50 is a very fair price for pencils.
There isn’t just one price for all artists, or one price for all types of assignments.
Price can depend on the reputation of the artist you hire. Some artists bring in the fans, some don’t.
Some jobs are harder than others.
The bigger the company and the wider the circulation, the bigger the paycheck.
Remember you are buying rights. The fewer the rights you buy, the cheaper the price. The more rights you buy, the higher the price.
If you are just buying First North American rights, you can set a lower price than work for hire.
If your project has low circulation, you get paid less than a project which sells big numbers.
An artist of little or no reputation getting $30-$50 for a pencil drawing is fair.
Now I can see all comments
Thanks for the info. Those books are a good price also, well worth it I do think. Might have to pick up a few next pay check.